Creation: Just Add Water??

If you’re reading this page, it’s probably because you believe that there is a God and that He’s all powerful – so powerful that He has the ability to create an entire universe. After all, that’s precisely what He did. If you subscribe to an Old Earth view of creation, I’d like to pose two questions to you:

Question 1: Do you believe God is so powerful that He can create another universe to look exactly like this one, and create it all in an instant?

I think most (if not all of us) would answer “Yes. He’s God, and if He wanted to make another universe that looks like this one, He can do it in an instant. That’s no problem for an all-powerful God.”

Which now leads us to the next question:

Question 2: If this same all-powerful God – capable of creating an entire universe in an instant – says He did it in 6 instants across 6 days, why do you insist on saying He did not do it that way, but rather, that He took billions of years to do it?

If you answer ‘yes’ to the first question, then you’ve acknowledged that, ultimately, “scientific proof” is irrelevant to the question of how God went about creating the universe. So to turn around and rely on “scientific proof” to negate what God explicitly says about a six-day creation is blatantly hypocritical.

Which invariably leads us to a third question:

Question 3: If we believe God’s power and Word are completely capable of creating a universe in one instant, what would cause us to go against our own logic and beliefs, and insist that this same combination is completely incapable of creating the same universe in six days?

Unfortunately, the answer is quite simple: unbelief and pride.

People who hold to an Old Earth view simply do not want to believe that God did what He said in the way that He said it. They’ll point to all sorts of “scientific data,” and spout theories about “gaps” and “day-age” and more, but in truth, if any of these had mattered one whit, they would have answered ‘no’ to Question 1. (And the only persons I have ever met that have answered ‘no’ to Question 1 were atheists.)

In the final analysis, Old Earthers reject a six-day creation simply because they care more about the word and opinions of men than the word and opinions of God.

Sad, but true.

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5 comments to Creation: Just Add Water??

  • Hi,
    There is no real scientific proof for the long ages postulated by Athiests. Radiometric dating is based on assumption which are based on a belief in an old earth. When a rock or fossil is dated, they reference the geologic column (which is dubious itself), or the surrounding landscape to determine relative age. Eg. A lava flow cuts through rock layers dated 60My and 300My respectively. When a sample is sent to lab for radiometric dating, the dates can vary considerably. So only the dates that fit (in this case between 60-300My) are used. To det the age. The other dates are thrown out with excuse ”Maybe the sample was contaminated”. All radiometric dating is flawed. If looking at the evidence from a biblical perspective, most of the strata and fossils were formed during the flood of Noah. This is a more reliable model, and tends to explain geological formations better than uniformitarian models do.

    Conclusion:
    Even from a Scientific viewpoint, the Christian can view the earth in a young age perspective. The Bible may not be a scientific handbook, but it is a reliable eyewitness account, and therefore is scientifically correct.
    Love in Christ,
    Kobus Downey

  • Shifting gears from the immediate topic in this blog but pertinent to the creation spectrum –

    26 Then God said, “Let us make man in our image, after our likeness. And let them have dominion over the fish of the sea and over the birds of the heavens and over the livestock and over all the earth and over every creeping thing that creeps on the earth.” (ESV)

    . I’ve been studying various Jewish interpretations of this verse and was curious if you had done any studying on the “let us make…” aspect regarding who the “us” or “we” were in this verse. There are numerous beliefs regarding the “us”…God/Holy Spirit, God/Angels, God speaking as royalty in the plural tense, and perhaps a few others. The trinity is obviously not one of concepts supported by the Jews, and truthfully, after studying this, imposing the trinity (a new testament revelation) on this passage seems the least likely of all the possibilities.

    I was surprised to learn that Jewish beliefs prior to Genesis stemmed from a polytheistic religion, and that the earliest usages of the plural for god is actually from when their stories had several gods in them. Also, the Egyptian religious culture (from which the Jews were obviously just liberated) was polluted with a system of polytheism and false gods. That the Jews became fiercely monotheistic after being given the book of Genesis tells me that they never interpreted

    26 Then God said, “Let us make man in our image, after our likeness. And let them have dominion over the fish of the sea and over the birds of the heavens and over the livestock and over all the earth and over every creeping thing that creeps on the earth.” (ESV)

    as anything other than a creation explanation from a singular God. Hmmm.

    Christians often try to point to the trinity regarding

    26 Then God said, “Let us make man in our image, after our likeness. And let them have dominion over the fish of the sea and over the birds of the heavens and over the livestock and over all the earth and over every creeping thing that creeps on the earth.” (ESV)

    , but there are all sorts of holes in that line of thinking with the most notable being that the concept of the trinity wasn’t even developed until after the New Testament was written. Hence, there’s absolutely zero chance the plural “we” in the Hebrew bible refers to the Christian idea. Claiming so is just as ridiculously presumptuous as when Muslims try to rewrite the Jesus stories.

    Any thoughts on who the “us” is in this verse?

  • admin

    > Any thoughts on who the “us” is in this verse?

    There are several options:
    A – God is referring to the angels
    B – God is One Person and occasionally despite speaking (or being recorded) as more than One Person
    C – There are multiple Persons in the One Godhead

    How I process it:
    A – Unless there is explicit language elsewhere in the Bible, it’s pure assumption one way or the other as to whether angels are in view. I’m not aware of any such explicit language in the Bible. I’m aware of commentators who hold this view, but as we all know, commentators are not inspired. Let’s see if other options hold more promise.

    B – This is certainly within the realm of possibilities, but just like with PointA, unless there is a passage somewhere saying “I am One Person, even though I occasionally refer to Myself in the plural”, it’s anyone’s guess as to whether this is a expression of speech or a description of a reality.

    C – Although people like to say that the Trinitarian view is strictly a NT view, there are literally dozens of OT passages that don’t make clear sense w/o a Trinitarian view.

    26 Then God said, “Let us make man in our image, after our likeness. And let them have dominion over the fish of the sea and over the birds of the heavens and over the livestock and over all the earth and over every creeping thing that creeps on the earth.” (ESV)

    is one of many, but hardly the most convincing. There are a number of times in the OT that we see an “Angel” character doing things that are unexpected of an angel. This warrants closer inspection. But first, let’s consider some facts about angels and God:
    – Angels are not equal with God.
    – Angels cannot grant wishes or blessings of their own accord. They are, by definition, servants and messengers.
    – Angels must not be worshiped; they worship God (

    11 And all the angels were standing around the throne and around the elders and the four living creatures, and they fell on their faces before the throne and worshiped God, (ESV)

    ;

    10 Then I fell down at his feet to worship him, but he said to me, “You must not do that! I am a fellow servant with you and your brothers who hold to the testimony of Jesus. Worship God.” For the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy. (ESV)

    ).
    – No man can see God and live (Exod 33:20;

    33 Did any people ever hear the voice of a god speaking out of the midst of the fire, as you have heard, and still live? (ESV)

    ;

    The Lord spoke with you face to face at the mountain, out of the midst of the fire, while I stood between the Lord and you at that time, to declare to you the word of the Lord. For you were afraid because of the fire, and you did not go up into the mountain. He said: (ESV)

    ).

    Yet throughout the Old Testament we see things like this:

    – Hagar meets an “angel of the Lord”. That “angel” hears her cries and makes a prediction to her about her offspring. When the angel leaves, Hagar claims she has seen God. This “angel” is acting in a God-like fashion, and Hagar is equating this “angel” with God. (

    The angel of the Lord found her by a spring of water in the wilderness, the spring on the way to Shur. And he said, “Hagar, servant of Sarai, where have you come from and where are you going?” She said, “I am fleeing from my mistress Sarai.” The angel of the Lord said to her, “Return to your mistress and submit to her.” 10 The angel of the Lord also said to her, “I will surely multiply your offspring so that they cannot be numbered for multitude.” 11 And the angel of the Lord said to her,

    “Behold, you are pregnant
    and shall bear a son.
    You shall call his name Ishmael,
    because the Lord has listened to your affliction.
    12 He shall be a wild donkey of a man,
    his hand against everyone
    and everyone’s hand against him,
    and he shall dwell over against all his kinsmen.”

    13 So she called the name of the Lord who spoke to her, “You are a God of seeing,” for she said, “Truly here I have seen him who looks after me.” (ESV)

    )

    – Three “men” visit Abraham for a meal. As the dinner discussion ensues, we get the distinct impression that two of them are angels, and the third “man” is speaking on behalf of God – even engaging in negotiations with Abraham. Abraham appeals to him as if he has the ability to intervene in the righteous judgment of God. In essence, Abraham is treating this “man” as God. (

    18:1 And the Lord appeared to him by the oaks of Mamre, as he sat at the door of his tent in the heat of the day. He lifted up his eyes and looked, and behold, three men were standing in front of him. When he saw them, he ran from the tent door to meet them and bowed himself to the earth and said, “O Lord, if I have found favor in your sight, do not pass by your servant. Let a little water be brought, and wash your feet, and rest yourselves under the tree, while I bring a morsel of bread, that you may refresh yourselves, and after that you may pass on—since you have come to your servant.” So they said, “Do as you have said.” And Abraham went quickly into the tent to Sarah and said, “Quick! Three seahs of fine flour! Knead it, and make cakes.” And Abraham ran to the herd and took a calf, tender and good, and gave it to a young man, who prepared it quickly. Then he took curds and milk and the calf that he had prepared, and set it before them. And he stood by them under the tree while they ate.

    They said to him, “Where is Sarah your wife?” And he said, “She is in the tent.” 10 The Lord said, “I will surely return to you about this time next year, and Sarah your wife shall have a son.” And Sarah was listening at the tent door behind him. 11 Now Abraham and Sarah were old, advanced in years. The way of women had ceased to be with Sarah. 12 So Sarah laughed to herself, saying, “After I am worn out, and my lord is old, shall I have pleasure?” 13 The Lord said to Abraham, “Why did Sarah laugh and say, ‘Shall I indeed bear a child, now that I am old?’ 14 Is anything too hard for the Lord? At the appointed time I will return to you, about this time next year, and Sarah shall have a son.” 15 But Sarah denied it, saying, “I did not laugh,” for she was afraid. He said, “No, but you did laugh.”

    16 Then the men set out from there, and they looked down toward Sodom. And Abraham went with them to set them on their way. 17 The Lord said, “Shall I hide from Abraham what I am about to do, 18 seeing that Abraham shall surely become a great and mighty nation, and all the nations of the earth shall be blessed in him? 19 For I have chosen him, that he may command his children and his household after him to keep the way of the Lord by doing righteousness and justice, so that the Lord may bring to Abraham what he has promised him.” 20 Then the Lord said, “Because the outcry against Sodom and Gomorrah is great and their sin is very grave, 21 I will go down to see whether they have done altogether according to the outcry that has come to me. And if not, I will know.”

    22 So the men turned from there and went toward Sodom, but Abraham still stood before the Lord. 23 Then Abraham drew near and said, “Will you indeed sweep away the righteous with the wicked? 24 Suppose there are fifty righteous within the city. Will you then sweep away the place and not spare it for the fifty righteous who are in it? 25 Far be it from you to do such a thing, to put the righteous to death with the wicked, so that the righteous fare as the wicked! Far be that from you! Shall not the Judge of all the earth do what is just?” 26 And the Lord said, “If I find at Sodom fifty righteous in the city, I will spare the whole place for their sake.”

    27 Abraham answered and said, “Behold, I have undertaken to speak to the Lord, I who am but dust and ashes. 28 Suppose five of the fifty righteous are lacking. Will you destroy the whole city for lack of five?” And he said, “I will not destroy it if I find forty-five there.” 29 Again he spoke to him and said, “Suppose forty are found there.” He answered, “For the sake of forty I will not do it.” 30 Then he said, “Oh let not the Lord be angry, and I will speak. Suppose thirty are found there.” He answered, “I will not do it, if I find thirty there.” 31 He said, “Behold, I have undertaken to speak to the Lord. Suppose twenty are found there.” He answered, “For the sake of twenty I will not destroy it.” 32 Then he said, “Oh let not the Lord be angry, and I will speak again but this once. Suppose ten are found there.” He answered, “For the sake of ten I will not destroy it.” 33 And the Lord went his way, when he had finished speaking to Abraham, and Abraham returned to his place. (ESV)

    )

    – After leaving Abraham, this “man” goes down to Sodom and Gomorrah to see the evil and do something about it. When judgment is dispensed on Sodom and Gomorrah, we see not one, but two Lords acting in concert to rain fire and brimstone on S&G. (

    24 Then the Lord rained on Sodom and Gomorrah sulfur and fire from the Lord out of heaven. 25 And he overthrew those cities, and all the valley, and all the inhabitants of the cities, and what grew on the ground. (ESV)

    )

    – When Abraham is halted in his sacrifice of Isaac, an “Angel of the Lord” speaks of Himself as the one to whom Abraham was about to offer Isaac. Angels do not receive sacrifices. Clearly this “Angel of the Lord” was God. (

    11 But the angel of the Lord called to him from heaven and said, “Abraham, Abraham!” And he said, “Here am I.” 12 He said, “Do not lay your hand on the boy or do anything to him, for now I know that you fear God, seeing you have not withheld your son, your only son, from me.” (ESV)

    )

    – Jacob wrestles with a “man”, eventually calling him “God”. Jacob and the Prophets refer to this “man” as both an “angel” and as God. (

    24 And Jacob was left alone. And a man wrestled with him until the breaking of the day. 25 When the man saw that he did not prevail against Jacob, he touched his hip socket, and Jacob’s hip was put out of joint as he wrestled with him. 26 Then he said, “Let me go, for the day has broken.” But Jacob said, “I will not let you go unless you bless me.” 27 And he said to him, “What is your name?” And he said, “Jacob.” 28 Then he said, “Your name shall no longer be called Jacob, but Israel, for you have striven with God and with men, and have prevailed.” 29 Then Jacob asked him, “Please tell me your name.” But he said, “Why is it that you ask my name?” And there he blessed him. 30 So Jacob called the name of the place Peniel, saying, “For I have seen God face to face, and yet my life has been delivered.” (ESV)

    ;

    In the womb he took his brother by the heel,
    and in his manhood he strove with God.
    He strove with the angel and prevailed;
    he wept and sought his favor.
    He met God at Bethel,
    and there God spoke with us—
    the Lord, the God of hosts,
    the Lord is his memorial name: (ESV)

    )

    – Jacob recounts how the “Angel” saved him and prays that this “Angel” will bless his offspring. Jacob is ascribing God-like characteristics to an angel (

    16 the angel who has redeemed me from all evil, bless the boys;
    and in them let my name be carried on, and the name of my fathers Abraham and Isaac;
    and let them grow into a multitude in the midst of the earth.” (ESV)

    )

    These are from Genesis, but there are many more. We could go on and on throughout the OT showing how this peculiar “Angel” does God-like things:
    – The “Angel of the Lord” that appeared to Moses in the burning bush that calls Himself “God” (Exod 3:1-6)
    – The “Angel of the Lord” that was the pillar of cloud/fire on the Israelite camp – also called God (Exod 13:21; Exod 14:19; Exod 14:24)

    Yes, there are normal angels, but this special “Angel of the Lord” has authority that these other angels do not have. So either there is great confusion about angels in general, or this one “Angel of the Lord” is actually God Himself. If deductive reasoning can’t nail this one down for us, Hosea’s explicit language nips all contrary opinions in the bud. He says this “Angel of the Lord” is “God”.

    In the womb he grasped his brother’s heel, and as an adult he wrestled with God. Jacob struggled with the Angel and prevailed; he wept and sought His favor. He found him at Bethel, and there He spoke with him. Yahweh is the God of Hosts; Yahweh is His name.

    Yet this “Angel of the Lord” cannot be the same One Person as God the Father. Here are two of many reasons why:
    – The phrase “Angel of the Lord” doesn’t make sense if that angel is the one same Person as the Lord. That makes about as much sense as calling me the “servant of the Admin”. If I am, in fact, the admin, what’s the point in calling me the “servant of the admin”?
    – Passages like

    24 Then the Lord rained on Sodom and Gomorrah sulfur and fire from the Lord out of heaven. (ESV)

    5 actually describe two distinct Lords working in concert (the one on the ground is presumably the one that had dinner with Abraham the evening before).

    For further study on this concept, Google “Christophanies in the Old Testament” or check out this link from Wikipedia: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Christophanies_in_the_Old_Testament

    This understanding of this “Angel of the Lord” not being a regular angel is not new to Christians of the New Testament. Even Josephus (who was not a Christian) cited the

    12:1 Ephraim feeds on the wind
    and pursues the east wind all day long;
    they multiply falsehood and violence;
    they make a covenant with Assyria,
    and oil is carried to Egypt.

    The Lord has an indictment against Judah
    and will punish Jacob according to his ways;
    he will repay him according to his deeds.
    In the womb he took his brother by the heel,
    and in his manhood he strove with God.
    He strove with the angel and prevailed;
    he wept and sought his favor.
    He met God at Bethel,
    and there God spoke with us—
    the Lord, the God of hosts,
    the Lord is his memorial name:
    “So you, by the help of your God, return,
    hold fast to love and justice,
    and wait continually for your God.”

    A merchant, in whose hands are false balances,
    he loves to oppress.
    Ephraim has said, “Ah, but I am rich;
    I have found wealth for myself;
    in all my labors they cannot find in me iniquity or sin.”
    I am the Lord your God
    from the land of Egypt;
    I will again make you dwell in tents,
    as in the days of the appointed feast.

    10 I spoke to the prophets;
    it was I who multiplied visions,
    and through the prophets gave parables.
    11 If there is iniquity in Gilead,
    they shall surely come to nothing:
    in Gilgal they sacrifice bulls;
    their altars also are like stone heaps
    on the furrows of the field.
    12 Jacob fled to the land of Aram;
    there Israel served for a wife,
    and for a wife he guarded sheep.
    13 By a prophet the Lord brought Israel up from Egypt,
    and by a prophet he was guarded.
    14 Ephraim has given bitter provocation;
    so his Lord will leave his bloodguilt on him
    and will repay him for his disgraceful deeds. (ESV)

    passage, saying that it was a “divine Person” as opposed to a created angel.

    For these reasons (which is well supported by many other passages in Scripture, and nowhere contradicted in Scripture), it is best to conclude that this “Angel of the Lord” is One with God – the Second Person of the Trinity: the Messiah. With this understanding, we can safely conclude that

    26 Then God said, “Let us make man in our image, after our likeness. And let them have dominion over the fish of the sea and over the birds of the heavens and over the livestock and over all the earth and over every creeping thing that creeps on the earth.” (ESV)

    is direct support of a Trinitarian view of Creation. Even without

    1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was in the beginning with God. All things were made through him, and without him was not any thing made that was made. (ESV)

    spelling it out for us explicitly, this is where Occam’s Razor takes us.

  • Well…I still struggle to see the Trinitarian support in

    26 Then God said, “Let us make man in our image, after our likeness. And let them have dominion over the fish of the sea and over the birds of the heavens and over the livestock and over all the earth and over every creeping thing that creeps on the earth.” (ESV)

    , in part because of the grammatical construction of the verse (it’s in the future tense), and in larger part because in the following verse (V.27) all the pronouns pointing to the creator become singular (again)…which is pretty much what they were in all the like verses (God creating with singular pronoun references) leading up to

    26 Then God said, “Let us make man in our image, after our likeness. And let them have dominion over the fish of the sea and over the birds of the heavens and over the livestock and over all the earth and over every creeping thing that creeps on the earth.” (ESV)

    . So what’s up with that?

    Don’t get me wrong, I believe in the trinity, I just don’t see the support for the trinity in this passage. And even if I did it still doesn’t answer for me why the Jews never viewed God as anything but a singular God. I won’t lose sleep over this one, regardless, but I do find the topic interesting.

  • admin

    > in part because of the grammatical construction of the verse (it’s in the future tense)

    But shouldn’t it be? He hadn’t yet made man, and He was going to. Therefore it should be future tense.

    > all the pronouns pointing to the creator become singular (again)

    Consistent with Trinitarian. (Don’t confuse it with Tri-theism. It’s One God, not 3 gods).

    > why the Jews never viewed God as anything but a singular God.

    One could easily argue that many Rabbis did, but even among the Rabbis, there were some who did not. I don’t have sources, but it seems to me that there was one commentator, writing about 250BC who mentioned the idea of a “Son of God” – a phrase not mentioned anywhere in the OT.
    I hold the position that the Prophets (and Job) were aware of some kind of mult-yet-one God. Many of their statements don’t make sense (and personally, I don’t care for the [very popular] idea of them blabbing and having no idea what they were blabbing about). I think they knew what they were saying. So when Moses is looking at the burning bush and talking to “the Lord” and simultaneously “the Angel of the Lord”, I think he knows full well he’s not dealing with a “one person” god.

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